Curse

Jeydra · Aug 22, 2009, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Recently when I do get PuGs instead of H/H, I notice lots of Monks running RoJ. They run Arcane Echo, RoJ, By Ural's Hammer and possibly the Ebon Honor Ward. Question is, what's the point? So RoJ is a good skill, but it hardly seems good enough to base an entire build off it, especially since Monks aren't exactly great offensive characters. RoJ deals armor-ignoring damage that outclasses Fire Magic for sure, but it doesn't come close to matching a physical - and that's not counting the downtime. What's more, I find it hard to believe that RoJ, even buffed, outdamages AP callers once you consider recharge and how enemies scatter / are already scattered when you engage.

So why bother? In some areas like VSF, then yeah you run RoJ because of the unique circumstances you fight in, but why would anyone run Echo RoJ in standard PvE?

Hugh Manatee · Aug 22, 2009, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Because it's like Balthazar unzipped and pissed a glowing stream of burning death on your enemies?

I don't bother AP calling unless I'm a necro primary and can direct mark and barbs myself, and with air of superiority the down time is somewhat less then you'd think. Also snares aint that hard to apply to keep stuff in the beam, erfshaker ftw!

Zodiac Meteor · Aug 22, 2009, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Your saying Jesus Beam isn't good/overrated?

It's armor ignoring damage, AoE and it lasts for 5 seconds... Whats not good? Echo it and double the Jesus beam, add by urals hammer to add an extra 20 damage per beam.

Daisuko · Aug 22, 2009, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Recently when I do get PuGs instead of H/H, I notice lots of Monks running RoJ. They run Arcane Echo, RoJ, By Ural's Hammer and possibly the Ebon Honor Ward. Question is, what's the point? So RoJ is a good skill, but it hardly seems good enough to base an entire build off it, especially since Monks aren't exactly great offensive characters. RoJ deals armor-ignoring damage that outclasses Fire Magic for sure, but it doesn't come close to matching a physical - and that's not counting the downtime. What's more, I find it hard to believe that RoJ, even buffed, outdamages AP callers once you consider recharge and how enemies scatter / are already scattered when you engage.

So why bother? In some areas like VSF, then yeah you run RoJ because of the unique circumstances you fight in, but why would anyone run Echo RoJ in standard PvE?

I like how nobody else noticed this. Pretty fail, considering ebon battle standard of honor won't effect RoJ.

Daisuko · Aug 22, 2009, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Your saying Jesus Beam isn't good/overrated?

It's armor ignoring damage, AoE and it lasts for 5 seconds... Whats not good? Echo it and double the Jesus beam, add by urals hammer to add an extra 20 damage per beam.

1.25 x 48 (16 smite) = 60, 12 additional damage. 24 if you're counting the effects on both RoJ's.

ac1inferno · Aug 22, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

AI used to not recognize [[Ray of Judgment] as AoE so never bothered to kite out of it. But since they fixed that, there's really little reason to take is since it's so easy to get out of adjacent.

FengShuiDove · Aug 22, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

it doesn't come close to matching a physical - and that's not counting the downtime

You know this, and I know this, and much of Guru knows this, but noooooot your average PUG. Your average PUG physical is a Warrior who thinks they're a contributing member of the team if it takes a mob 15 minutes to kill them. It's simply not the case.

So, back to Monks and RoJ. Thanks to some *good* builds that played off Monks as offensive casters/hybrids, there are now tons of *bad* ones trying to imitate those. Plus, in PUGs, it's stressful to Monk. You get blamed for everything when most of the time the problem is the aforementioned Warrior who does about 15 DPS and lets mobs clump up around him until he dies.

Short answer: Easy way out. Useful in certain places, therefore abused everywhere.

Hugh Manatee · Aug 22, 2009, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Also If there's a physical in the party I can S&H and JI him and he does insane damage, also RoD.

Swahnee · Aug 22, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

When i play with H/H i find it very funny to run RoJ (almost because healing/protting with heroes is sooo boring), but i will never design a build around a single skill, so i run a RoJ/Prot, with RoJ, Signet of Castigation, Smite Hex, Aegis, PS, SoA, etc.. I agree with you that this probably isn't the best damage-dealing solution, but i find it really funny with H/H.

When i play with other people, and we are going to do something difficult, i ask what do they want me to run (just to avoid arguments wars).

I really dislike, however, this fashion of basing entire builds on single skills, like this RoJ builds you're talking about, but also the HB/UA/mimicry, which are two builds designed only to overpower Heal Party and Dwayna's Kiss.

paranon · Aug 22, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

-healing/protting with heroes is sooo boring

Personally i disagree, i always run woh hybrid when i'm out with H/H, i have done for years, and i don't find it boring, i think (don't know about you, this is just a generalisation) that when people play heal/prot monk builds with h/h, they take far too much healing, i once saw a heal monk take sabway, AND 2 heal henchmen, so he had 4 healers in his party, whenever i play with H/H, even in the toughest areas, i only bring one other healer (usually a henchman), because that is all that is needed, and it keeps me on my feet, every fight, i have to be thinking about who to prot, when to put up aegis, when i have time to stop and cast glyph, who to prioritise, etc, otherwise the party dies. Monking can be as interesting or boring as you want it to be.

Windf0rce · Aug 23, 2009, 06:51 AM // 06:51

RoJ is fun and looks good. It's far from bad, it is decent specially if you can snare stuff. Even in Hard Mode areas can be vanquished with RoJ, snare/KD stuff inside RoJ and it will be too late before they move out. It's a nice to take a break from healing/protting all the time.

Whenever I play H/H, I run damage builds on my Monk (AP caller, PvE skills, RoJ or some other gimmick). As said above it sucks to heal H/H... because besides healing, you need to call targets, to aggro stuff, flag heroes apart of AoE. Thus it is just usually easier and more fun to deal damage when alone.

With other players though healing/protting is far more fun because you can concentrate on the actual reason to be a Monk: healing and protting. Not flagging or calling or initiating agro for the H/H - people do this while you actually Monk.

About melee damage being the best, in theory yes it wonderful, it is buffable to the roof, and shit. Everyone is tired to know this. But in practice, the PvE areas have much less caster shutdown or hate than melee has, the caster builds require less synergy and are easier to run by PUGs. Plus, some people just don't like playing melee, at all, period - they will run caster damage builds at the best they can, even knowing a melee can be potentially stronger. Not everyone is good, or wants to be the best, people just want to have fun and get things done even if not optimally. My opinion/POV.

Jeydra · Aug 30, 2009, 08:50 AM // 08:50

I was talking about EBSoH, but I wasn't aware it didn't affect RoJ.

Anyway here's the problem. Let's say RoJ hits two people for 4 seconds - seems pretty reasonable to me. Each pulse of RoJ does 42 damage per second. Add burning for +14 damage per second = 56 damage per second. Multiply by two (2nd RoJ from Arcane Echo) and you get 112 damage per second. Multiply by two again (hitting two foes) and you get 224 damage per second. Add 25% (from By Ural's Hammer!) and you get 280 damage per second. Multiply by 4 (4 seconds) and you get 1120 damage total.

Against that you're looking at a downtime of some 25 seconds at least - 20s cooldown on RoJ itself, the time it takes to hold back RoJ until aggro's settled and you can get 2 monsters at a time, and there's also the cooldown on Arcane Echo. So take the 1120 damage and divide by 25s and you get ... about 50 DPS, counting some damage from wanding, some damage from other skills and some damage from signets.

Is that a lot?

maxxfury · Aug 30, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Overall sustained DPS is pretty low, but its brought mainly for tank n spank aspect...group up, nuke, move on. usually by the time the tank has the group rounded up you ready to go again.

Its does big damage in a small time, with a long recharge...so you basically get a one shot at it per mob. And have the travel time between mobs to reload.

The ebon ward with a 50% faster recharge is nice with this, and a 40/40 smite set. Which give you a pretty good recharge % rate.

So the actual down times isnt so bad when when you work in the travel time and time between each mob been balled up.

So ideally you want something to be able to do when not casting Ae>ROJ. be that Signets (ughh) hex/cond clean up, ps, aegis ect.

Swahnee · Aug 30, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

I would calculate the DPS dividing by the recharge time only if the battle lasts for more than this time. If all mobs are dead in less time, i would use this last time as a base for calculating the DPS (this is the time when RoJ is really effective).

This is because if you kill all mobs before RoJ has recharged, then you wouldn't use it right when it's ready, but you would wait to find other mobs instead. So the actual DPS would be even smaller.

I think that this is a problem with all those skills that have a long down time. Calculating the DPS simply by dividing by the recharge time is right when you are spamming a skill (like Discord for example) with low recharge time.

However, this is only my opinion..maybe i'm wrong^^

rkubik · Sep 26, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I have been vanquishing a lot lately and I find echoing RoJ works great as long as you use a snare and/or knockdown. I usually take YMLAD and a snare. I find it also helps with a MM because the minions help to stop the fleeing. Take a few more RoJ heroes especially in an undead area and it makes quick work.